After repeatedly suffering issues with scam apps making it onto the Snap Store, Canonical maker of Ubuntu Linux have now decided to manually look over submissions.
You don’t honestly believe that, right? Like you’re aware that the Steam hardware survey only includes Steam users that have it installed and choose to participate in the survey? There are way more computers and servers running Ubuntu than there are steam decks.
Context is computers dual booting Windows and Ubuntu, so obviously consumer hardware and not servers and also not multiple containers on one device. There are millions of Steam Decks sold already and Steam Deck is consumer hardware which means that there are millions of individual devices running SteamOS.
servers running Ubuntu
Sure there are hardcore users that run dozens of containers simultaneously and Ubuntu is quite a popular choice among those. Completely different topic from the one I’ve replied to, though.
Steam numbers are completely meaningless. There’s absolutely no way SteamOS outnumbers Ubuntu even if we limit this comparison to desktop installs. Ubuntu’s been around for a very long time and many of its users wouldn’t show up on Steam because they don’t game.
If you look at just my household, Ubuntu and its derivatives outnumber SteamOS by a factor of 7:1, not even counting numerous VMs and containers, or 3:1 if you’re just counting desktops, laptops and tablets. But if you look at my steam usage, Ubuntu hasn’t shown up there in over a year.
I probably spend 10x as much time on Ubuntu machines as I spend on my Steam Deck, but the Steam hardware survey would never surface that fact, nor is it intended to.
Sure, but it’s often a clearer way to explain why a statistic is misleading.
In this case, my anecdote shows an example of why the steam hardware survey is not, and was never intended to be, an accurate depiction of what distros people are using overall. Instead, it’s a depiction of what distros people are using for Steam, which is the point of the statement above mine.
Using anecdote instead of statistical data is a bad idea. But so is ignoring anecdotes simply because they’re anecdotes, as anecdotes are often one of the best ways to find limitations in statistical data.
You’re being rightfully called out by multiple people for using bad statistics. That doesn’t require better statistics to do any more than doubting Russell’s teapot requires showing that it’s actually a coffee pot.
As I’ve already explained to you elsewhere, that’s not how this works. You are the one who made the claim. The burden is on you to provide a good backing for said claim. When people asked for that backing, you provided something that does not back up that claim. It’s not on anyone else to provide an alternative claim, as that would be a variation of attempting to shift the burden of proof.
Personally, I’m not sure if good enough data to provide an answer to everyone’s satisfaction exists. But that doesn’t mean we get to shortcut the process by claiming that a data set means something it doesn’t. Some other data that one could theoretically provide that would be of similar quality to what you’ve provided (that is, decent quality data that measures something related but cannot be reasonably extrapolated to verify or falsify your claim) include:
Distro breakdowns from the Snap store (this would overrepresent distros with Snap preinstalled)
Distro breakdowns from Flathub (this would overrepresent distros with Flatpak preinstalled and flathub preconfigured)
Distro breakdowns from web statistics (this would underrepresent privacy-centric distros and hide the distro for people who, for example, use a flatpak of their browser)
As I’ve already explained to you elsewhere, that’s not how this works.
So you say…
You are the one who made the claim. The burden is on you to provide a good backing for said claim.
I have no burden to provide anything but I did anyway out of courtesy, you and your friends just refuse that out of gut feeling.
Personally, I’m not sure if good enough data to provide an answer to everyone’s satisfaction exists.
So there is, according to your own words, absolutely no credible evidence that Ubuntu is popular on desktops at all. So everybody here claiming how popular Ubuntu is, is making claims without backing them up. Funny how your fervor isn’t with them and their “burden to provide a good backing for said claim”. Seems you are not that objective about that matter.
Fact is, Steam is widely used by “regular” people (which this sub-thread is about) and therefore the best statistic there is about distribution usage outside the “techie sphere”.
So you are “not sure if good enough data to provide an answer to everyone’s satisfaction exists” that Ubuntu is popular and the statistic that exists says it isn’t that popular among non-techie users. Good that we have this settled now!
I have no burden to provide anything but I did anyway out of courtesy
You provided a source and then claimed it says something it doesn’t. That’s not courtesy, that’s spreading falsehoods. When people called you out on it, you doubled down. That goes from saying something false, which we all do occasionally even when we don’t intend to, to lying. If you don’t want to back up your claims, you can say that. But that’s not what you did, and that’s why people have a problem with this behaviour.
So there is, according to your own words, absolutely no credible evidence that Ubuntu is popular on desktops at all.
This is what’s known as moving the goalposts. Stating that we don’t have the data to provide an answer to everyone’s satisfaction is not the same as saying that there’s not credible evidence of Ubuntu’s popularity.
So everybody here claiming how popular Ubuntu is, is making claims without backing them up.
[Ubuntu is] one of the top most used distros probably
Not only did @embed_me@programming.dev say something that general context of the industry tends to say is likely, they also caveated their statement with a “probably.”
Not only that, but the very screenshot you keep sharing actually provides evidence for that. Ubuntu is in the top 5 distros listed.
Funny how your fervor isn’t with them and their “burden to provide a good backing for said claim”.
Because their statements match my current informed understanding of the state of things (so I don’t feel the need to ask them where they’re getting their info) and, more importantly, they’re not making toxic replies and personal attacks. They’re not, in what I’ve read, telling you to shut up. Rather, most of the replies I’ve read to your comments have been unfailingly polite, which is more than I can say of your own comments.
Seems you are not that objective about that matter.
I’m not objective in the matter, and neither are you. However, I’m also not claiming that Steam OS isn’t popular. It’s undoubtedly popular, and on a personal note I’m a fan of it. What I am claiming is that the data you’re using doesn’t back up your statement.
Fact is, Steam is widely used by “regular” people (which this sub-thread is about) and therefore the best statistic there is about distribution usage outside the “techie sphere”.
There’s the problematic leap. Steam is widely used, yes. And the Steam survey is a great tool for helping game developers decide where to target their games. But that doesn’t make it a good statistic about general distro usage, for numerous reasons, including (but not limited to):
It is likely to overrepresent the Steam Deck for the same reason a survey of Snap users would overrepresent Ubuntu.
Steam users are not necessarily representative of all Linux users.
Where someone uses Steam OS is not necessarily representative of their everyday usage.
Given that the Steam Deck is primarily an appliance, its use of Linux no more makes someone who’s playing on a Steam Deck a Linux user than someone with a TV running Tizen is a Linux user.
SteamOS is installed on more computers, though.
You don’t honestly believe that, right? Like you’re aware that the Steam hardware survey only includes Steam users that have it installed and choose to participate in the survey? There are way more computers and servers running Ubuntu than there are steam decks.
Context is computers dual booting Windows and Ubuntu, so obviously consumer hardware and not servers and also not multiple containers on one device. There are millions of Steam Decks sold already and Steam Deck is consumer hardware which means that there are millions of individual devices running SteamOS.
Sure there are hardcore users that run dozens of containers simultaneously and Ubuntu is quite a popular choice among those. Completely different topic from the one I’ve replied to, though.
Steam numbers are completely meaningless. There’s absolutely no way SteamOS outnumbers Ubuntu even if we limit this comparison to desktop installs. Ubuntu’s been around for a very long time and many of its users wouldn’t show up on Steam because they don’t game.
If you look at just my household, Ubuntu and its derivatives outnumber SteamOS by a factor of 7:1, not even counting numerous VMs and containers, or 3:1 if you’re just counting desktops, laptops and tablets. But if you look at my steam usage, Ubuntu hasn’t shown up there in over a year.
I probably spend 10x as much time on Ubuntu machines as I spend on my Steam Deck, but the Steam hardware survey would never surface that fact, nor is it intended to.
No, I won’t because anecdotal evidence is no statistic.
Sure, but it’s often a clearer way to explain why a statistic is misleading.
In this case, my anecdote shows an example of why the steam hardware survey is not, and was never intended to be, an accurate depiction of what distros people are using overall. Instead, it’s a depiction of what distros people are using for Steam, which is the point of the statement above mine.
Using anecdote instead of statistical data is a bad idea. But so is ignoring anecdotes simply because they’re anecdotes, as anecdotes are often one of the best ways to find limitations in statistical data.
Provide a better one or keep quiet.
You’re being rightfully called out by multiple people for using bad statistics. That doesn’t require better statistics to do any more than doubting Russell’s teapot requires showing that it’s actually a coffee pot.
No, they are an actual statistic, whereas you deniers just have gut feeling and literally nothing else.
[citation needed]
I don’t know if millions is as big a number you think it is
[Citation Needed]
Irrelevant Citation
Provide a better one or keep quiet.
As I’ve already explained to you elsewhere, that’s not how this works. You are the one who made the claim. The burden is on you to provide a good backing for said claim. When people asked for that backing, you provided something that does not back up that claim. It’s not on anyone else to provide an alternative claim, as that would be a variation of attempting to shift the burden of proof.
Personally, I’m not sure if good enough data to provide an answer to everyone’s satisfaction exists. But that doesn’t mean we get to shortcut the process by claiming that a data set means something it doesn’t. Some other data that one could theoretically provide that would be of similar quality to what you’ve provided (that is, decent quality data that measures something related but cannot be reasonably extrapolated to verify or falsify your claim) include:
So you say…
I have no burden to provide anything but I did anyway out of courtesy, you and your friends just refuse that out of gut feeling.
So there is, according to your own words, absolutely no credible evidence that Ubuntu is popular on desktops at all. So everybody here claiming how popular Ubuntu is, is making claims without backing them up. Funny how your fervor isn’t with them and their “burden to provide a good backing for said claim”. Seems you are not that objective about that matter.
Fact is, Steam is widely used by “regular” people (which this sub-thread is about) and therefore the best statistic there is about distribution usage outside the “techie sphere”.
So you are “not sure if good enough data to provide an answer to everyone’s satisfaction exists” that Ubuntu is popular and the statistic that exists says it isn’t that popular among non-techie users. Good that we have this settled now!
You provided a source and then claimed it says something it doesn’t. That’s not courtesy, that’s spreading falsehoods. When people called you out on it, you doubled down. That goes from saying something false, which we all do occasionally even when we don’t intend to, to lying. If you don’t want to back up your claims, you can say that. But that’s not what you did, and that’s why people have a problem with this behaviour.
This is what’s known as moving the goalposts. Stating that we don’t have the data to provide an answer to everyone’s satisfaction is not the same as saying that there’s not credible evidence of Ubuntu’s popularity.
Well let’s examine the very comment to which you replied:
Not only did @embed_me@programming.dev say something that general context of the industry tends to say is likely, they also caveated their statement with a “probably.”
Not only that, but the very screenshot you keep sharing actually provides evidence for that. Ubuntu is in the top 5 distros listed.
Because their statements match my current informed understanding of the state of things (so I don’t feel the need to ask them where they’re getting their info) and, more importantly, they’re not making toxic replies and personal attacks. They’re not, in what I’ve read, telling you to shut up. Rather, most of the replies I’ve read to your comments have been unfailingly polite, which is more than I can say of your own comments.
I’m not objective in the matter, and neither are you. However, I’m also not claiming that Steam OS isn’t popular. It’s undoubtedly popular, and on a personal note I’m a fan of it. What I am claiming is that the data you’re using doesn’t back up your statement.
There’s the problematic leap. Steam is widely used, yes. And the Steam survey is a great tool for helping game developers decide where to target their games. But that doesn’t make it a good statistic about general distro usage, for numerous reasons, including (but not limited to):