Fair enough, I see where you’re coming from and fully expect some proof. I do however have doubts that any proof will ever be conclusive enough to convince people and certainly not enough to get Modi to admit the truth if his govt is truly behind it. So what will providing proof accomplish anyway? Not providing proof might be a tactic to elicit lies that can be demonstrated as such through a trickle release of proof, enough to prove that the deniers are liars.
At the end of the day, Canada is a sovereign country and they are free to level a number of consequences against a foreign government if they so desire, including sanctions, visa restrictions, and so on. The only proof they need is for themselves, and to take action that will protect Canadians from foreign assassinations in the future. Canada really does not have to prove anything to India, especially if they do not believe the Indian govt is acting in good faith.
I don’t agree. Something is better than nothing, even if things are heavily redacted. I as a common man may not interprete them adequately but there are people who can. Especially people from the intelligece community can check and somewhat verify if there is anything plausible with respect to the accusitions. This important for the allies of the Canada too. Canada is a member five eyes, so they can definitely validate their gathered intels with the likes of UK, US if the evidence deemed unfit for public release. So far I have not seen any of those countries conclusively made statements that they validated Canada’s allegations. The investigation is ongoing anyway.
It does not matter whether Indian PM admits it or not if evidence is there and the international community verified and largely accepts it as truth. So far I haven’t seen this happen.
Off course Canada can do whatever they choose in their jurisdiction. For example, many countries creates travel advisory for their citizens regarding which countries are deemed safe / not safe for them to travel to. If country X says that country Y is unsafe for their citizens to travel to, it’s perfectly fine. However, that doesn’t mean country Y is universally unsafe. But, when it comes to international relations we can’t just hurl allegation to another sovereign country without any evidence, independent verification / backing. Because tomorrow country Z can allege something outrageous about country A without evidence, will the international community accept that without questions as well?
Personally I feel diplomacy from both sides have failed us. It’s their job to handle these things more gracefully.
I understand, it sounds like you are concerned for India’s international reputation in light of these allegations, and rightfully so. It’s unfair from the perspective of a common citizen that your country gets flamed like this without proof, and insulting that people just say “well it’s Canada, they aren’t lying”.
It’s just that I trust my government and institutions and I believe them. Biden and Trudeau both spoke to Modi before this was released. Journalists in Canada were going to release this if the government didn’t. I truly believe that handling it this way was bad for Canada too, so I don’t see an incentive for Canada to lie which I do see for the Indian govt. Don’t forget that other countries have their own relationships with India and will make their own decisions about supporting the allegations, not necessarily in light of the quality of proof but rather for pragmatic reasons. I think this whole affair will be painful for normal people in both countries, so in that sense you’re absolutely right that diplomacy failed.
Still I’m curious: what do you think would be the reaction if the allegations turn out to be true?
Yes, I am aware that CBC was going to go public with their report and they notified Trudeau beforehand. I watched the interview of the CBC journalist by Karan Thapar.
It is indeed painful and unfortunate for everyone. I understand that geopolitics is extremely complicated, it’s not as straightforward as asking the allies to back the claims based on evidences alone.
I don’t see an incentive for Canada to lie.
That’s a bit debatable. There are speculation that Trudeau is doing this to win popularity among the Sikh community in Canada. It is obvious that his government needs their support. So there might be a internal political pressure as well. Not to mention Canada has an upcoming federal election in 2025.
I’m not saying this is the case. But as you said you trust your government and you see no reasons for them to lie. Similarly many people from the other sidr can choose to believe in their government too. There are plausible speculations on the both sides. But plausibility rarely helps, instead often introduces biases in our thinking. That’s why producing evidence is extremely important. I hope Canada do provide some evidence which is accepted by international community. I’ll give you an example. In case of Jamal Khashoggi killing Saudí Arabia never admitted any wrongdoings. But from the evidences we all know what happened and who did what. So, as a concerned human being is it unreasonable to ask something similar in this case as well?
I’m not a representative of my Government so I can’t really say what they’ll do in case the evidences are rightfully presented. But my experience with the current government and my common sense tells me that they will try their best to wiggle out of the allegations and evidences. But that doesn’t matter, what matters is whether international community accepts the evidence provided by Canada or not.
If India indeed commited the alleged crime, I want my fellow citizens to know that and see how international community vetted the evidences. So that they can judge wisely in our next election and vote accordingly. As I said in my original comment, I don’t want to see my country degrades itself to the level of CIA, Mossad or FSB.
Fair enough, I see where you’re coming from and fully expect some proof. I do however have doubts that any proof will ever be conclusive enough to convince people and certainly not enough to get Modi to admit the truth if his govt is truly behind it. So what will providing proof accomplish anyway? Not providing proof might be a tactic to elicit lies that can be demonstrated as such through a trickle release of proof, enough to prove that the deniers are liars.
At the end of the day, Canada is a sovereign country and they are free to level a number of consequences against a foreign government if they so desire, including sanctions, visa restrictions, and so on. The only proof they need is for themselves, and to take action that will protect Canadians from foreign assassinations in the future. Canada really does not have to prove anything to India, especially if they do not believe the Indian govt is acting in good faith.
I don’t agree. Something is better than nothing, even if things are heavily redacted. I as a common man may not interprete them adequately but there are people who can. Especially people from the intelligece community can check and somewhat verify if there is anything plausible with respect to the accusitions. This important for the allies of the Canada too. Canada is a member five eyes, so they can definitely validate their gathered intels with the likes of UK, US if the evidence deemed unfit for public release. So far I have not seen any of those countries conclusively made statements that they validated Canada’s allegations. The investigation is ongoing anyway.
It does not matter whether Indian PM admits it or not if evidence is there and the international community verified and largely accepts it as truth. So far I haven’t seen this happen.
Off course Canada can do whatever they choose in their jurisdiction. For example, many countries creates travel advisory for their citizens regarding which countries are deemed safe / not safe for them to travel to. If country X says that country Y is unsafe for their citizens to travel to, it’s perfectly fine. However, that doesn’t mean country Y is universally unsafe. But, when it comes to international relations we can’t just hurl allegation to another sovereign country without any evidence, independent verification / backing. Because tomorrow country Z can allege something outrageous about country A without evidence, will the international community accept that without questions as well?
Personally I feel diplomacy from both sides have failed us. It’s their job to handle these things more gracefully.
I understand, it sounds like you are concerned for India’s international reputation in light of these allegations, and rightfully so. It’s unfair from the perspective of a common citizen that your country gets flamed like this without proof, and insulting that people just say “well it’s Canada, they aren’t lying”.
It’s just that I trust my government and institutions and I believe them. Biden and Trudeau both spoke to Modi before this was released. Journalists in Canada were going to release this if the government didn’t. I truly believe that handling it this way was bad for Canada too, so I don’t see an incentive for Canada to lie which I do see for the Indian govt. Don’t forget that other countries have their own relationships with India and will make their own decisions about supporting the allegations, not necessarily in light of the quality of proof but rather for pragmatic reasons. I think this whole affair will be painful for normal people in both countries, so in that sense you’re absolutely right that diplomacy failed.
Still I’m curious: what do you think would be the reaction if the allegations turn out to be true?
Yes, I am aware that CBC was going to go public with their report and they notified Trudeau beforehand. I watched the interview of the CBC journalist by Karan Thapar.
It is indeed painful and unfortunate for everyone. I understand that geopolitics is extremely complicated, it’s not as straightforward as asking the allies to back the claims based on evidences alone.
That’s a bit debatable. There are speculation that Trudeau is doing this to win popularity among the Sikh community in Canada. It is obvious that his government needs their support. So there might be a internal political pressure as well. Not to mention Canada has an upcoming federal election in 2025.
I’m not saying this is the case. But as you said you trust your government and you see no reasons for them to lie. Similarly many people from the other sidr can choose to believe in their government too. There are plausible speculations on the both sides. But plausibility rarely helps, instead often introduces biases in our thinking. That’s why producing evidence is extremely important. I hope Canada do provide some evidence which is accepted by international community. I’ll give you an example. In case of Jamal Khashoggi killing Saudí Arabia never admitted any wrongdoings. But from the evidences we all know what happened and who did what. So, as a concerned human being is it unreasonable to ask something similar in this case as well?
I’m not a representative of my Government so I can’t really say what they’ll do in case the evidences are rightfully presented. But my experience with the current government and my common sense tells me that they will try their best to wiggle out of the allegations and evidences. But that doesn’t matter, what matters is whether international community accepts the evidence provided by Canada or not.
If India indeed commited the alleged crime, I want my fellow citizens to know that and see how international community vetted the evidences. So that they can judge wisely in our next election and vote accordingly. As I said in my original comment, I don’t want to see my country degrades itself to the level of CIA, Mossad or FSB.
Sounds like there’s a bit more confirmation that Canada was actually correct and not making it up, since other international parties seem to have looked into it: https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/diaspora/us-envoy-confirms-canada-received-intelligence-from-five-eyes-partners-before-trudeau-went-public-with-allegations-against-india-547068
In that case, Indian govt is also free to retaliate since no country is just going to keep diplomatic relations one-way.