Some 17,500 fatbikes imported from China have been held by Dutch authorities over concerns about speed manipulation and safety risks.
I’m going full old man yells at cloud here, but here goes. I have no problem with E-bikes. They are great, green modes of transportation. Having said that, they are motorized, and imo basically an electric Vespa. To ride one you should be required to be licensed in the state. I see a bunch of 12 -15 year old boys ripping these through the park. Imo this is wildly irresponsible parenting, and going to cause a ton of broken bones and deaths. Kids treat these as toys and have 0 regard for the law. I have seen far too many near collisions when taking my kids to the local park. I think (don’t quote me on this) you don’t need to be licensed for E-bikes and they are treated the same as bicycles here. I’m just assuming because I’ve seen cops look the other way. When I was a kid, go-ped scooters with 2 stroke engines were all the rage among this age group, and eventually the law caught up and I stopped seeing kids riding them. Now it’s the same with E-bikes. I get that kids in this age group want some kind of transportation to go hang out and all, but it’s dangerous having underage, unlicensed people operating them.
Ebikes are regulated in the EU, they’re nothing like Vespa. What you’re referring to is an electric motorbike and already requires a license. What is needed is enforcement.
There are a lot of electric mopeds that look like assisted bicycles but aren’t. Those are a bit of a problem and shouldn’t be in bike paths.
Technically you are right.
The fat bike is considered to be a normal electric 25km/h bike (here in NL).
What changed (our view) on it was that some Chinese brands made it possible to raise the speed by doing a trivial change (either hardware or software) allowing speeds upto 45km/h.
In some extreme cases even higher.
Combine this with 12 year olds with soft skulls and you have the reason why the legal age is going to be raised to 16 years old and wearing a helmet.
And the old man in me screams: also require some training and a license for it.
And yes, I hate those things with a vengeance and have an opinion on everyone on such a vehicle. They are noisy, tent to break the speed limits and attract a certain type of people.
Old man signing off.
Is there a requirement for how much assistance the bike can give. Because I see kids hardly pedaling and still going 25km/h.
And yeah, these bikes are upgraded by people and not following code. But enforcement has started. The police needed new Rollerbanks… and these have now been distributed. They can now check mopeds and e-bikes on the same device.
But then, I’d be for age restricting e-bikes and possibly even giving them tags and requiring bike helmets… so…
✅
I may be wrong, but IIRC the assistance limit was 1:1.
You don’t need a licence if they are in the category of electric bike, meaning they cannot be self propelled (you need to peddle) and they have a limiter limiting the speed to 25 km/h.
Unfortunately, these things are wicked easy to circumvent. Many retailers will sell you a throttle (meant for moving the bike while walking with it) and changing the speed limiter and peddle requirement is as easy as going into the software settings. This results into what is effectively an electric moped without the licence plate and requirement. According to the law, such a vehicle requires you have a license and wear a helmet, but of course nobody does.
I agree, licensure is appropriate for electric bikes that work like petrol powered bikes. If you use a hand control or foot control to make the bike accelerate it is a vehicle with similar enough properties to a motorbike or motorised scooter that it should require a license plate, registration, and driver’s license.
That said, anything that does assist only is more like a mobility scooter or bike with training wheels. You may not be able to go as long as you can with the electric bike by yourself, but if the drive characteristics are similar then it should be a bike. Those characteristics are speed, stop distance, involvement with the generation of motion, and how the weight is balanced.
So a bike that assists when going up a hill but won’t help you go faster past a certain speed is not fundamentally changing how you behave on the bike, but if you can twist the handle and get acceleration beyond your personal max speed it is clearly different.
If we could have many more people riding electric bikes which behave like supported push bikes then there would be fewer cars on the road, more exercise for people, and no massive increase in risk, actually probably a decrease due to fewer bikes being hit by the reduced number of cars.
Simply require ALL electric powered two wheel vehicles that aren’t motorcycles–whether nominally assistive or not–to comply with the same regulations as scooters. Easy, done.
I don’t see anything wrong with the electric motorcycles, but they shouldn’t be on a pedestrian or bicycle path, they should be on the street and you should need a license to drive them just like any other motorized vehicles capable of those speeds.
Electric motorcycles and electric bicycles are two very different things.
Well they were. But these fatbikes bring them on par, with a throttle instead of having to pedal, a riding stance similar a scooter and an unlocked speed limit.
That’s not a fatbike / bicycle then, but I have no idea about the context here. The photo shows a regular fatbike hardtail, with rather small tires even.
There is a link to the article without paywall somewhere in the comments, but yes, the image is a wrong one (or actually a real, non electric mtb fatbike). The “fatbikes” we have here in the Netherlands look like this:
I don’t see a paywall, it just does not contain anything but the stock photo. Your example looks more like a moped, which is indeed a motorcycle and should fall under the same regulations.
The problem the government faces is how to make a distinction between moped and a classic e-bike. Because from the factory there is no real difference apart from “oh it looks a bit like a moped”. My vote goes to setting the minimum age for assisted riding at 16 (except medical reasons) or at least obligating having a helmet under the age of 18 (to protect their poor undeveloped brains). Which will immediately kill the attraction which is to ride a moped without helmet. The real challenge is regulating e-bike unlocking in general (as well as adding a throttle). Which is hard because the electronics can quickly be set back to factory with a click of a button.
That’s the issue. They aren’t supposed to go that fast. It’s an illegal alteration for a reason. And we are talking about teenagers.
They don’t need a driver’s licience to ride a bicycle. So people may not know how to traverse traffic safely if they go on the car lanes. Or not care about safety as teenagers tend to do.
But the fatbike fad — they are especially popular among teenagers — has triggered a myriad of complaints and prompted a call for new legislation aimed at restricting their use.
Apart from the humming noise made by the large tyres on the road, authorities are also concerned at the ease in bypassing software that restricts their speed to the legal limit.
I’m sure the same people complaining about fat bike tire noise have never once complained about the much louder sound of car and truck tires.
Wait, hang the fuck on…
the ease in bypassing software that restricts their speed to the legal limit.
As opposed to the insurmountable difficulty of pressing the car’s accelerator pedal a bit harder?
It’s an issue when these vehicle sharing the same bike lane with mostly slow moving bike. They’ve already done with fighting car so I don’t think it’s fair to just bring car into the mix. These thing is already a moped if it can exceed road bike speed with ease.
Yeah the Netherlands has basically a dedicated bicycle infrastructure meant for pedal cycles. There is a whole bunch of context for this story that is easy to miss if you don’t live there.
It’s not about cars vs e-bikes - it’s about not being allowed to bring an ultra powered bike that’s unsafe for other riders. It’s more akin to how your car has to follow regulations to be allowed on the road.
That shit about noise is just old people being old people. It’s the potential safety issues that got these bikes held up in customs.
Yeah, we’re talking about Netherlands here, the cycling haven of Earth, if they think these super pedelec is an issue on bike lane you better take note of it if you want a safe cycling city. These thing have the max speed of 30 to 40mph(48/64kmph) after unlocked and it would get really ugly if it hit someone, as people there tend to not wear helmet when riding bicycle because it’s unnecessary and super safe to do so.
If you ever had a car/moped/motorcycle that zoom by you in 50kmph while riding on the road you know how scarry that is.
I’ll be candid, I was expecting faster. 30mph is pretty regularly doable on a road bike (obviously not a fatbike, but just talking sharing a lane here), not sustained unless you’re riding in the TDF, but as a sprint? Yeah, definitely doable.
Just to be clear I’m not saying it wouldn’t be a problem at 30-40mph for these fatbikes, because you’re talking about anyone being able to do those speeds, fully sustained for long periods, just that I was expecting even higher from the way it was being described.
At the same time I want one to try out…
30mph is i think the low end one, some can go 40mph and higher. Check out this youtube channel, he reviewed some high speed one.
I do wanna try one out too, but i wouldn’t buy one, it make more sense to get a moped. Because it’s basically moped disguised as a pedelec. Kinda defeating the purpose of a bicycle if you ask me.
I can see where there could be use… I live in the kind of area where the only path available at certain points is major roads, where going 30mph in a car would be so slow its dangerous.
Being able to hit a higher speed like 50 for a short period, then get off and go back to biking… That I could see as an appropriate use.
Personally I like the idea of electric, I have a crappy knee so if it hurts randomly (which happens), I basically turn around use one leg to actually pedal. As a result, I’m not doing the rides I used to do, from a 100 mile weekend bit of fun down to around a 10 mile super quick bit of fun. Electric would make me feel comfortable going for longer. Of course, I’m not looking to go 60mph on a bicycle anyway.
the cars don’t use the bike lane.
It’s the Netherlands, the cars aren’t automatic.
Fuck off mate. We have seperate lanes for bikes and cars. We’ve been hating on vehicles going too fast on the bike lane since their existance. Scooters, e-bikes and anything else that’s a danger to other cyclists.
Both of you need to chill the fuck out: You can disagree and argue without the personal attacks.
Both of you get a temporary ban. In the future when you are here you need to win your arguments without attacking the person.
Firstly check your attitude, dick.
Secondly I’m a cyclist. I was only pointing out the absurdity of complaining about road noise from a bike that is at most 50dB when road noise from cars hovers in the 90dB range yet no one ever complains about car noise.
Thirdly, not every city has separated bike and car lanes. I personally have no issue with fast moving bikes in the same lane as me because I’m not a coward like you seem to be. I also know how to handle my bike properly and keep my head on a swivel which helps me avoid accidents.
Both of you need to chill the fuck out: You can disagree and argue without the personal attacks.
Both of you get a temporary ban. In the future when you are here you need to win your arguments without attacking the person.
Firstly, check your attitude, dick. Secondly, I’m a cyclist.
It’s not about you mate. Or your pathetic bravado. “Oh look at me, I don’t mind people making the bike lane less safe because I’m so brave! Road safety? That’s for whimps!”
As if teenagers aren’t at risk here, or anyone else who travels by bike.
And where comes the idea from that people don’t complain about loud trucks/cars? That’s some made up bs. Nor does it at all solve anything about the boosted issues of fatbikes/scooters. Which is more traffic accidents!
Removed by mod
It’s the Netherlands, if you’re a self-described cyclist, they like bikes more than you do. Your assertion is a bad one.
Is it so hard for Americans to imagine that there could be places that are not directly next to a road? lol
could it be possible that these bikes can go faster, and thus are louder, than the cars and trucks can go within city streets in the Netherlands?
This article reads like an awesome ad and meow I want one of these bikes.
Buy two so you can make an ebike chariot!
Buy 8 so you can make a train
Buy 16 so you can make a tank
noncredibledefense must be leaking…
did a cat write this?
Meow can you tell?
The prose are all nimbly bimbly!
Mine is pretty sweet… The tires made it much more comfortable to ride in general and having the motor for the assist on hills is frikken amazing. Really helps prevent the deterrence against using it as a bike.
The motors have quite the kick too… I expect the urge to get into trouble is great.
Yeah, they’re basically electric motorcycles, and it makes sense that’d they’d be held.
Mostly food delivery drivers in my city. They are a nuisance and make bike paths feel less safe and chill.
Heh, I think I just got one of these types inadvertently.
1000 watt motor (2x 500), large batt etc… I think it does close to 35 mph if I try but I haven’t even taken it out of pedal assist yet.
I’m in USA, so laws are more localized. I suspect this thing might be illegal, but it’s gray area right now. Gonna just behave with it and hope for the best.
The concern I would have is that currently there isn’t great established ways to get something like this clearly made legal… And I have a needed use case.
I weigh enough that clearly legal lower wattage bikes are all not rated for me… Barely. I’m using the bike to lose weight. In the interim, this is what works.
I hope they clear it in some capacity, like just age or “legal until you are stupid” like riding it on public sidewalks or such. A wattage limit overall is stupid unless there’s a way to certify you will behave.
The way laws like this tend to be enforced is generally either someone has to report you or you have to cause a problem and then are also retroactively charged for the other infractions. So if you are already doing your best to be safe and not annoying, that’s all you can do. Fly under the radar.
I’m using the bike to lose weight. In the interim, this is what works.
That ain’t gonna help much, especially when you rely on a powerful motor to help move you. For reference:
That’s fine except I’m not using it in straight power mode, and set my pacing by my heart rate. I’m using it exactly as my doctor advised.
If my heart rate is consistently maintaining elevated levels matching what the doc said, then the video is irrelevant.
An exercise you cannot control the pace of properly is counter intuitive and can be dangerous to certain health conditions. If used correctly, this only expands access to more users.
Key words “used correctly”.
There are people needing this kind of assist not from being fat. In my case, I’m in a long haul recovery from a severe spinal injury. Trying to rebuild considerable loss of muscle.
Without the assist, cycling would literally be impossible.
Due to posture needed for long walking, that isn’t possible yet for me either. Anything over half a mile destroys me for a full day.
My diet is already advised by a doctor. Your videos present like my food choices and lack of movement are 100% the problem.
FWIW an ebike got me fit enough that I could ride a heavy steel MTB 20+ miles without getting winded. Keep at it and you can get into pretty good shape!
That’s frikken awesome to hear. I used to do century rides back from the 90’s and 2000’s, and really have missed the trails.
Thank you!
Good to hear you’re at least using it in their minimal capability as a pedal assist bike and not just blasting it off at the get go. It takes dedication to do the former, not a lot to do the latter. Hope you have a healthy recovery.
Your videos present like my food choices and lack of movement are 100% the problem.
(I’m not the original commenter.)
That’s not at all what the first video is saying. It’s saying that exercise is not good for losing weight. That your body will burn the same calories every day regardless of how much you exercise unless you are running marathons or biking like a professional athlete. The science behind it is very interesting. I just happened to watch that video last night. Your body burns fewer calories at rest if you exercise more. So it ends up not making a difference.
Exercise is still very, very healthy. Just not good for weight loss. So, in that sense, yes, your food choices are important because the only way to actually lose weight is by cutting calories.
Watch the whole video. It’s fascinating stuff.
I didn’t watch the second video and can’t say anything about it.
That’s fair, and understood in most cases that’s appropriate.
Unfortunately I’m my case, I need to replace missing muscle mass which should also then in turn burn more calories etc.
I’ll return to the video with that in mind. My long term goal is to some day learn from and spar with my buddy who teaches martial arts… He’s already helped me with diet adjustment tips to be able to stick to the changes the doc wants.
Fingers crossed
replace missing muscle mass which should also then in turn burn more calories etc.
That was in the video, too! That matters a lot less than you’d think. But exercising and building muscle is a great idea!
That doesn’t tell the whole story, yes, long term you don’t actually burn more calories long term by exercising, but it’s part of an entire way of life that makes you healthier and you will tend to lose fat.
And studies show that riding an ebike means you are more likely to use it and exercise more, which provides a lot of health benefits, including weight loss.
I think you’re basically agreeing with the video i shown, yet missed half the point. Losing weight is depend on the input of energy and not the output of energy. As i stated, riding an ebike not gonna help much on losing weight but since OP’s choice isn’t entirely based on losing weight, i think your point and mine is moot.
I myself is a subject of both side of the argument, i work blue collar and use a lot of energy working, while i didn’t exactly change my working habit, i’ve been stress eating a lot lately, which in return gain some weight. On the other hand, after getting an ebike my riding distance rise from 0 to 50km per week. So yes, i understand your point and both POV is true, but my point still stand, exercise won’t help you lose weight, but it will make you healthier.
Edit:
It’s also based on how you ride the ebike, the proponents of s-pedelec/class-3 doesn’t usually pedal and mostly use throttle, which in the end doesn’t get you any exercise at all. When OP mentioned 1000w ebike i first assume they’re one of them, that’s my mistake.
Your article suggested the same:
It’s important to note that not all e-bikes are created equal when it comes to exercise benefits. The study found that class 1 e-bikes, which provide pedal assistance up to 20 mph, were the most effective at promoting physical activity. This is because riders still have to pedal and put in some effort to maintain a consistent speed. In contrast, class 2 e-bikes, which have a throttle that allows riders to cruise without pedaling, were found to be less effective at promoting exercise.
I own a class-2 but i pedal most of the time, only throttle when interact with junction/intersection/roundabout
A body in motion, even if that motion is tame, is better than staying on the couch. Losing weight is about building long term habits, while dropping the actual weight in the kitchen.
It is, that’s the whole point of the two videos.
Ain’t no body got time for that!
My fat old ass is tired of getting passed by them on mbts.
Paywall
if there’s a road accident and both riders are dutch, do they share the blame equally?
No, they share the blame proportionally depending on who was going the fastest.
deleted by creator
