Well that’s why CCW training tells you to put your gun away if you’re sure it’s now a safe area, and if it isn’t now a safe area (possible other shooters for instance) to GTFO and call the cops and your lawyer. Also why you should give a description of the active shooter if you call it in, so they know “oh this dude in a T shirt may be a defender, we recieved a call about a guy in tac gear.” Of course, most often the shooters specifically target gun free zones because you can’t have one there, so you technically likely shouldn’t have one anyway, so makes sense the cops wouldn’t expect a defender in those cases either.
Yeah it’s something that everyone needs to decide for themselves (my issue is when people like to decide things for others.) It definitely can be helpful in a specific scenario, like a hammer to a nail, but it is also a responsibility and if you aren’t able or willing to, you shouldn’t, that simple. Especially if as you say you are you’re priviledged enough to live in a good area, in contrast to pizza delivery drivers (well, “ex”) who live in bad neighborhoods who may need them.
Agreed, and I’ll always defend the right to carry, for those who choose to. I think we should have some extra restrictions, like maybe a CCW for concealable firearms (and subsequent training), plus proof of secure storage in some manner if you have kids.
The only place I’d carry is at work, and it’s against company policy to carry. So I don’t, it’s just not worth the risk and the likelihood that I’d need it is so remote.
Well a CCW is already required in most states to carry except for those recently lightening restrictions. Secure storage is iffy, because the supreme court already ruled it invalidates the right to self defense (most home invaders aren’t kind enough to wait until you get your safe open to duel you, they typically just steal the guns from your safe after forcing you to open it at gunpoint when you ask if they’ll hold up a sec, and then use those in subseqent crimes.)
And yeah I hear that, unfortunately the fact that your work bans guns even with a CCW means that if you ever do need it, it’ll probably be there, gun free zones being the typical targets, and disgruntled employees and all. But I totally understand that it becomes not worth the risk then, you’d either have to risk being found out and fired or keep it in the car which while sometimes necessary because “gun free zone” always feels like you’re forced to leave a gun where it can be (and they often are) easily stolen.
Secure storage is mostly for people with kids or at-risk individuals at home.
Secure storage against burglary doesn’t exist; if they want your guns, they’ll just grind their way in or steal the safe to grind later. Expecting home owners to protect against that absolutely just isn’t practical, the goal should be keeping curious (or determined) kids from getting in, and deterring theft from burglary should be a nice side-effect. Unfortunately, most gun locks fail that standard.
keep it in the car
Yeah, I’m not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in. If I know I need it and it’s in my car, it might as well be at home. And keeping it in the car is just asking for trouble from an officer, they seem to be easily spooked by such things. Fortunately, I’m white, so I’ll probably get the benefit of the doubt, but it’s just not something I’m interested in testing.
But if there was an incident in my office, I’d be screwed. There are three exits:
emergency exit near my workspace - would sound an alarm (not ideal)
main door - glass doorway that opens into the entryway and looks into my hallway (terrible)
back door - need to pass a glass door to the lobby, and another to the lunch room; it opens up onto a balcony (long drop, would need to cross lots of windows either direction)
So basically, my options aren’t great. Yet I still think I’m net better off not carrying.
As a kid who notoriously defeated locks and found hidden items: good luck. My parents didn’t have guns to find but my uncle taught me about them when I was like 10 so tbh they were never really some mystical artifact to play with to me, I’d already shot a few, knew how to use them safely and not to do so without an adult, etc. Conversely nobody educated me about alcohol instead figuring locks would work, hehe. Surprise!
Yeah, I’m not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in
No lol you said work banned them, so people who work there and carry outside of work (maybe they have a life [sorry lol you seem cool but it was too perfect]) have to leave their gun in the car and put it in their pants at 5:00, so, were you to carry, you’d have to also do that. That is what I meant. Problem being, that rule makes for a good scenario for a gun thief. If there were an active shooter and you get out, fuck your coworkers that’s their problem, take your gun and go home (unless you wanted to help them because you like them or they’re humans or something, point being you aren’t obligated to.) As for cops, if you are following the laws (and yeah white helps, but that is another issue that needs to be fixed) they actually seem to think you’re on their side because “gun and following laws,” oddly they started treating me with some semblance of respect, it was kinda weird.
emergency exit near my workspace - would sound an alarm (not ideal)
Exactly ideal tbh, egress and alarm with one action? AND close? Sounds great.
main door - glass doorway that opens into the entryway and looks into my hallway (terrible)
Also a likely point of entry for the shooter, definitely terrible.
back door - need to pass a glass door to the lobby, and another to the lunch room; it opens up onto a balcony (long drop, would need to cross lots of windows either direction)
Kinda having trouble visualizing this but it doesn’t sound great, best bet is the emergency or shelter in place, but SIP is hampered by lack of last ditch weapon. I’d push it out that door.
Yeah I’d agree, simply since it’d be illegal. Functionally, even if I’m heading for that exit or sheltering, I’d rather have a hail mary even if some situations are a Kobyashi Maru, but since it would be illegal to have in the gun free zone, you don’t have a choice anyway.
I watch LockPickingLawyer on YouTube, and it seems every gun lock/safe has some gaping security issue, and many that I see at stores that haven’t been covered look like they’d have similar issues.
So until I find something that LPL would approve for use around kids, I’m not buying a handgun.
That said, I’ll probably get a small rifle soon (probably 22lr) that I can store in the attic. My kids could find it, it would take a lot of effort and it isn’t that interesting. I mostly want it to teach my kids to shoot “real” guns (they’ve shot BB guns) and maybe go hunt some rabbits. I may also get a 22lr pistol, but that’s a bit higher on the “cool” factor and thus higher risk.
If I find a lock that I can trust, I might pick up a 9mm or .357 for personal use. I’ve taken my wife shooting, and she really liked it, so I’d like to take her out to fed land and shoot sometimes. If I did, I’d get a CCW (unnecessary in my state, but necessary for travel) and carry sometimes when I go out to get comfortable with it. But the lock comes first.
egress and alarm with one action?
Our muster point for most emergencies is right out front of our building, in full view of the front doors and windows where the shooter is likely to be. Our active shooter muster point (blue light alarm) is across the street behind the building in a parking garage (can see from the rear balcony, but there’s a place to hide).
If I trigger the fire alarm, people will go right into the shooter’s path. If someone else pulls it (far more likely), I would go right out front into the shooter’s path. The alarm would also increase the shooter’s stress level, which could be the difference between them shooting and not.
having trouble visualizing
It’s an office building built into a hill. The front is ground level and the rear has a ledge/balcony about 2 floors above the rear ground level that runs the length of the building in either direction. One side of the building has a parking garage, and the other has the truck loading zone down one level. Here’s some crappy ASCII art (top is front, I work bottom right, t is truck loading, p is parking garage, XX is building, and | and - are the railing).
t | XXp
|---|
I work near the parking garage, and the no-alarm exit is ~2/3 of the way across the building toward the truck loading zone. From there, I can either run back to the parking garage (lots of windows), or toward the truck loading zone (some windows, drop onto cement).
since it would be illegal
It’s not a gun free zone, it’s merely against company policy and probably landlord policy. There is no posted signage, but I did need to sign something when I started acknowledging that I understand the rules. So violation wouldn’t result in a criminal case, but it could result in my termination and/or official trespass order.
It’s possible some people here carry (constitutional carry state), but given company policy, that number is probably pretty low. I would certainly risk violating that rule if I believed there was an elevated risk, like we fired someone over culture fit reasons (I’d probably just WFH honestly), otherwise I’d comply.
Yeah he’s the best, and you’re right. Be careful btw, .22lr is just as deadly as any other caliber and is also still pretty cool for someone sheltered away from them, that teaching and hunting will likely be more effective and remove the mystery.
Ah yeah that puts a damper on the alarm for sure lol.
Oh ok I can see it now.
And well good there’s no posted signage, likely (depending on state) that means their ban has no teeth and is only actionable by firing which of course still sucks but it’s better than dying. Hell, you’re lucky you can WFH, I’d just do that as often as possible anyway haha.
Yup, WFH is great. Company policy is 3 days in office, but we’re discussing for our department to go back to 2. We also have a department culture of WFH being viable with even a small excuse (e.g. waiting for an important package is sufficient), so something like “I don’t feel safe because worker X got fired” would absolutely be acceptable.
And yeah, I know .22lr is deadly, but it has low enough recoil that I can teach even young kids to use it (three under 10), and basic gun safety should be enough to keep it from becoming lethal (don’t look down the barrel, don’t point at people, etc). Our family gun rules will be very simple: if you touch the gun without permission, you lose shooting privileges. And even if I store it in the attic (they’d need to move a heavy ladder to get to it), I’ll keep it secured with a trigger lock and only store ammo separately in a safe (not very secure, but better than nothing).
One day I hope to carry a handgun because I want to be prepared. But preparedness is more than personal safety, it also includes safety for my job and kids. So either the gun would always be with me (impractical), I need to trust my kids (I don’t), or it needs to be secure (haven’t found a lock I trust). Maybe in a few years.
Well that’s why CCW training tells you to put your gun away if you’re sure it’s now a safe area, and if it isn’t now a safe area (possible other shooters for instance) to GTFO and call the cops and your lawyer. Also why you should give a description of the active shooter if you call it in, so they know “oh this dude in a T shirt may be a defender, we recieved a call about a guy in tac gear.” Of course, most often the shooters specifically target gun free zones because you can’t have one there, so you technically likely shouldn’t have one anyway, so makes sense the cops wouldn’t expect a defender in those cases either.
Yeah it’s something that everyone needs to decide for themselves (my issue is when people like to decide things for others.) It definitely can be helpful in a specific scenario, like a hammer to a nail, but it is also a responsibility and if you aren’t able or willing to, you shouldn’t, that simple. Especially if as you say you are you’re priviledged enough to live in a good area, in contrast to pizza delivery drivers (well, “ex”) who live in bad neighborhoods who may need them.
Agreed, and I’ll always defend the right to carry, for those who choose to. I think we should have some extra restrictions, like maybe a CCW for concealable firearms (and subsequent training), plus proof of secure storage in some manner if you have kids.
The only place I’d carry is at work, and it’s against company policy to carry. So I don’t, it’s just not worth the risk and the likelihood that I’d need it is so remote.
Well a CCW is already required in most states to carry except for those recently lightening restrictions. Secure storage is iffy, because the supreme court already ruled it invalidates the right to self defense (most home invaders aren’t kind enough to wait until you get your safe open to duel you, they typically just steal the guns from your safe after forcing you to open it at gunpoint when you ask if they’ll hold up a sec, and then use those in subseqent crimes.)
And yeah I hear that, unfortunately the fact that your work bans guns even with a CCW means that if you ever do need it, it’ll probably be there, gun free zones being the typical targets, and disgruntled employees and all. But I totally understand that it becomes not worth the risk then, you’d either have to risk being found out and fired or keep it in the car which while sometimes necessary because “gun free zone” always feels like you’re forced to leave a gun where it can be (and they often are) easily stolen.
Secure storage is mostly for people with kids or at-risk individuals at home.
Secure storage against burglary doesn’t exist; if they want your guns, they’ll just grind their way in or steal the safe to grind later. Expecting home owners to protect against that absolutely just isn’t practical, the goal should be keeping curious (or determined) kids from getting in, and deterring theft from burglary should be a nice side-effect. Unfortunately, most gun locks fail that standard.
Yeah, I’m not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in. If I know I need it and it’s in my car, it might as well be at home. And keeping it in the car is just asking for trouble from an officer, they seem to be easily spooked by such things. Fortunately, I’m white, so I’ll probably get the benefit of the doubt, but it’s just not something I’m interested in testing.
But if there was an incident in my office, I’d be screwed. There are three exits:
So basically, my options aren’t great. Yet I still think I’m net better off not carrying.
As a kid who notoriously defeated locks and found hidden items: good luck. My parents didn’t have guns to find but my uncle taught me about them when I was like 10 so tbh they were never really some mystical artifact to play with to me, I’d already shot a few, knew how to use them safely and not to do so without an adult, etc. Conversely nobody educated me about alcohol instead figuring locks would work, hehe. Surprise!
No lol you said work banned them, so people who work there and carry outside of work (maybe they have a life [sorry lol you seem cool but it was too perfect]) have to leave their gun in the car and put it in their pants at 5:00, so, were you to carry, you’d have to also do that. That is what I meant. Problem being, that rule makes for a good scenario for a gun thief. If there were an active shooter and you get out, fuck your coworkers that’s their problem, take your gun and go home (unless you wanted to help them because you like them or they’re humans or something, point being you aren’t obligated to.) As for cops, if you are following the laws (and yeah white helps, but that is another issue that needs to be fixed) they actually seem to think you’re on their side because “gun and following laws,” oddly they started treating me with some semblance of respect, it was kinda weird.
Exactly ideal tbh, egress and alarm with one action? AND close? Sounds great.
Also a likely point of entry for the shooter, definitely terrible.
Kinda having trouble visualizing this but it doesn’t sound great, best bet is the emergency or shelter in place, but SIP is hampered by lack of last ditch weapon. I’d push it out that door.
Yeah I’d agree, simply since it’d be illegal. Functionally, even if I’m heading for that exit or sheltering, I’d rather have a hail mary even if some situations are a Kobyashi Maru, but since it would be illegal to have in the gun free zone, you don’t have a choice anyway.
I watch LockPickingLawyer on YouTube, and it seems every gun lock/safe has some gaping security issue, and many that I see at stores that haven’t been covered look like they’d have similar issues.
So until I find something that LPL would approve for use around kids, I’m not buying a handgun.
That said, I’ll probably get a small rifle soon (probably 22lr) that I can store in the attic. My kids could find it, it would take a lot of effort and it isn’t that interesting. I mostly want it to teach my kids to shoot “real” guns (they’ve shot BB guns) and maybe go hunt some rabbits. I may also get a 22lr pistol, but that’s a bit higher on the “cool” factor and thus higher risk.
If I find a lock that I can trust, I might pick up a 9mm or .357 for personal use. I’ve taken my wife shooting, and she really liked it, so I’d like to take her out to fed land and shoot sometimes. If I did, I’d get a CCW (unnecessary in my state, but necessary for travel) and carry sometimes when I go out to get comfortable with it. But the lock comes first.
Our muster point for most emergencies is right out front of our building, in full view of the front doors and windows where the shooter is likely to be. Our active shooter muster point (blue light alarm) is across the street behind the building in a parking garage (can see from the rear balcony, but there’s a place to hide).
If I trigger the fire alarm, people will go right into the shooter’s path. If someone else pulls it (far more likely), I would go right out front into the shooter’s path. The alarm would also increase the shooter’s stress level, which could be the difference between them shooting and not.
It’s an office building built into a hill. The front is ground level and the rear has a ledge/balcony about 2 floors above the rear ground level that runs the length of the building in either direction. One side of the building has a parking garage, and the other has the truck loading zone down one level. Here’s some crappy ASCII art (top is front, I work bottom right, t is truck loading, p is parking garage, XX is building, and | and - are the railing).
t | XX p |---|I work near the parking garage, and the no-alarm exit is ~2/3 of the way across the building toward the truck loading zone. From there, I can either run back to the parking garage (lots of windows), or toward the truck loading zone (some windows, drop onto cement).
It’s not a gun free zone, it’s merely against company policy and probably landlord policy. There is no posted signage, but I did need to sign something when I started acknowledging that I understand the rules. So violation wouldn’t result in a criminal case, but it could result in my termination and/or official trespass order.
It’s possible some people here carry (constitutional carry state), but given company policy, that number is probably pretty low. I would certainly risk violating that rule if I believed there was an elevated risk, like we fired someone over culture fit reasons (I’d probably just WFH honestly), otherwise I’d comply.
Yeah he’s the best, and you’re right. Be careful btw, .22lr is just as deadly as any other caliber and is also still pretty cool for someone sheltered away from them, that teaching and hunting will likely be more effective and remove the mystery.
Ah yeah that puts a damper on the alarm for sure lol.
Oh ok I can see it now.
And well good there’s no posted signage, likely (depending on state) that means their ban has no teeth and is only actionable by firing which of course still sucks but it’s better than dying. Hell, you’re lucky you can WFH, I’d just do that as often as possible anyway haha.
Yup, WFH is great. Company policy is 3 days in office, but we’re discussing for our department to go back to 2. We also have a department culture of WFH being viable with even a small excuse (e.g. waiting for an important package is sufficient), so something like “I don’t feel safe because worker X got fired” would absolutely be acceptable.
And yeah, I know .22lr is deadly, but it has low enough recoil that I can teach even young kids to use it (three under 10), and basic gun safety should be enough to keep it from becoming lethal (don’t look down the barrel, don’t point at people, etc). Our family gun rules will be very simple: if you touch the gun without permission, you lose shooting privileges. And even if I store it in the attic (they’d need to move a heavy ladder to get to it), I’ll keep it secured with a trigger lock and only store ammo separately in a safe (not very secure, but better than nothing).
One day I hope to carry a handgun because I want to be prepared. But preparedness is more than personal safety, it also includes safety for my job and kids. So either the gun would always be with me (impractical), I need to trust my kids (I don’t), or it needs to be secure (haven’t found a lock I trust). Maybe in a few years.
Hell yeah sounds like a good plan.