Since we’re starting this debate again, I do wish to ask the people that think the Soviets shouldn’t have gone into Poland: what should the Soviets have done?
With benefit of hindsight and access to whatever formerly-secret documents, what is the best course of action for them?
Refuse to enable Nazi expansion, prepare for war, try to make allies. So carry on before they chose to make a pact. Making that pact with Nazis wasn’t some inevitable law of nature they just had to do. You can always resist.
There’s always a reason for all kinds of actions but it’s just an attempt to avoid moral scrutiny to present the situation as inevitable. There were other options, they chose not to do those but rather made a pact. Agree or disagree with the decision from moral or some realpolitik sense, doesn’t matter. Presenting it as inevitable is avoidance.
molotow-ribbentrop was to buy time to prepare for war. They built a huge industrial complex east of the Ural to prepare since they correctly predicted that their facilities in the west would soon be overrun. They also tried to find allies but were shut down at every turn. When it was clear that there were no allies to be found and every other nation had made a non-aggression pact with the nazis only then did they resort to making their own.
I don’t think anyone thought the USSR did it for no reason. I’m just saying they could’ve chosen not to make those pacts and that’s why dividing Eastern Europe with the Nazis is given as a moral black mark for USSR.
Your country fought on the side of the Nazis in WW2, and helped them carry out the scorched earth policy you absolutely won’t forgive the USSR for turning back.
Why? It bought them time to prepare further and gave them the possibility to station troops forward in land that they knew was gonna be overrun by nazis and need liberation afterwards anyway. I really don’t understand what’s so bad about it. You dont win wars with “moral points” but with strategy like that.
You really are writing a lot of responses that don’t answer the question. It’s funny how you go on about there being other options while diligently refusing to actually list them.
Instead of making a pact with the Nazis, refuse to do that and prepare for war. Do you want a fucking WikiHow article detailing the steps for a troop mobilization of 1939 Soviet Union or what
They did prepare for war with the Nazis, and the pact was part of that. So I take it then your answer is that they shouldn’t have prepared as much for the war with the Nazis.
Given that the level of preparedness they did manage was still only barely enough to win, you answer is ultimately that you wanted the USSR to take a course of action that would have allowed the Nazis to win the Eastern Front.
Which is ultimately always what it comes down; resentment that the Soviets won.
I mean, the obvious answer is instead of trying to divvy the sovereign nation between them, they should have stood up for them and defended them when the Nazis rolled in. Barring that, they should have liberated them, then left them the fuck alone. Even a stopped clock is right sometimes, this comparison is pretty clearly silly. They weren’t lamenting the lives of Nazis lost in the battle to push them out of Poland. They were lamenting the lives of the Poles after falling under the Russian boot, after the battles were won.
I’m asking those that believe the Soviets shouldn’t have entered. You seem to believe that the Soviets should, but that they should not have done war crimes. And I would agree, not that I have any knowledge of that, but I am not asking you.
Ableism, denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow genocide, Holocaust trivialization, and now both saying the Nazis should have taken over all of Poland and misgendering another user? Incredible, you keep digging deeper.
Well, you said specifically (only said) they shouldn’t have committed war crimes, which to some extent indicates that they should have gone into Poland. If you had a problem with them going into Poland, you should have talked about that and not brought up a different thing.
Why are you talking to me if you don’t want to? You can just… not.
Ableism, denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow genocide, Holocaust trivialization, and now both saying the Nazis should have taken over all of Poland and misgendering another user? Incredible, you keep digging deeper.
Since we’re starting this debate again, I do wish to ask the people that think the Soviets shouldn’t have gone into Poland: what should the Soviets have done?
With benefit of hindsight and access to whatever formerly-secret documents, what is the best course of action for them?
I mean they could’ve not made a pact with Nazi Germany to jointly divide Eastern Europe. Like start from that.
And before anyone mentions, that includes others who made pacts with them too.
Them: “so what should they have done?”
You: “Well I’ll tell you what they shouldn’t have done!”
So, in short, you can’t actually answer the question.
But like what should they have done, reach out to other nations like UK and France to create an anti-nazi alliance?
Most of europe was very happy doing business with Nazis until they invaded them.
there were enough collaborators to continue to do so under their preferred fascist order.
Refuse to enable Nazi expansion, prepare for war, try to make allies. So carry on before they chose to make a pact. Making that pact with Nazis wasn’t some inevitable law of nature they just had to do. You can always resist.
There’s always a reason for all kinds of actions but it’s just an attempt to avoid moral scrutiny to present the situation as inevitable. There were other options, they chose not to do those but rather made a pact. Agree or disagree with the decision from moral or some realpolitik sense, doesn’t matter. Presenting it as inevitable is avoidance.
molotow-ribbentrop was to buy time to prepare for war. They built a huge industrial complex east of the Ural to prepare since they correctly predicted that their facilities in the west would soon be overrun. They also tried to find allies but were shut down at every turn. When it was clear that there were no allies to be found and every other nation had made a non-aggression pact with the nazis only then did they resort to making their own.
I don’t think anyone thought the USSR did it for no reason. I’m just saying they could’ve chosen not to make those pacts and that’s why dividing Eastern Europe with the Nazis is given as a moral black mark for USSR.
Lol, anti communists will never forgive the USSR for not letting the Nazis have all of Eastern Europe.
I don’t think Nazis should’ve had any part of Europe tbh.
Then you probably shouldn’t condemn the soviets for not letting them have it
Your country fought on the side of the Nazis in WW2, and helped them carry out the scorched earth policy you absolutely won’t forgive the USSR for turning back.
Why? It bought them time to prepare further and gave them the possibility to station troops forward in land that they knew was gonna be overrun by nazis and need liberation afterwards anyway. I really don’t understand what’s so bad about it. You dont win wars with “moral points” but with strategy like that.
You’re asking why making a pact with the Nazis is a black mark? I would think that’s obvious. Same for Chamberlain and everyone else.
So your problem is that their victory over the nazis wasn’t pure enough?
You really are writing a lot of responses that don’t answer the question. It’s funny how you go on about there being other options while diligently refusing to actually list them.
Instead of making a pact with the Nazis, refuse to do that and prepare for war. Do you want a fucking WikiHow article detailing the steps for a troop mobilization of 1939 Soviet Union or what
They did prepare for war with the Nazis, and the pact was part of that. So I take it then your answer is that they shouldn’t have prepared as much for the war with the Nazis.
Given that the level of preparedness they did manage was still only barely enough to win, you answer is ultimately that you wanted the USSR to take a course of action that would have allowed the Nazis to win the Eastern Front.
Which is ultimately always what it comes down; resentment that the Soviets won.
I don’t think anyone should’ve made pacts with Nazis and enabled their actions through that. It’s not specific to the USSR.
So? The USSR had to make a decision in the world where the West did make those pacts. What you think has zero relevancy to that.
I mean, the obvious answer is instead of trying to divvy the sovereign nation between them, they should have stood up for them and defended them when the Nazis rolled in. Barring that, they should have liberated them, then left them the fuck alone. Even a stopped clock is right sometimes, this comparison is pretty clearly silly. They weren’t lamenting the lives of Nazis lost in the battle to push them out of Poland. They were lamenting the lives of the Poles after falling under the Russian boot, after the battles were won.
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I’m asking those that believe the Soviets shouldn’t have entered. You seem to believe that the Soviets should, but that they should not have done war crimes. And I would agree, not that I have any knowledge of that, but I am not asking you.
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Ableism, denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow genocide, Holocaust trivialization, and now both saying the Nazis should have taken over all of Poland and misgendering another user? Incredible, you keep digging deeper.
Well, you said specifically (only said) they shouldn’t have committed war crimes, which to some extent indicates that they should have gone into Poland. If you had a problem with them going into Poland, you should have talked about that and not brought up a different thing.
Why are you talking to me if you don’t want to? You can just… not.
Also I am not your bro.
Also please stop deleting your comments.
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Ok… And I never said that?
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Except that the Soviets did not kill everyone. They did not do something similar to the holocaust.
Ableism, denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow genocide, Holocaust trivialization, and now both saying the Nazis should have taken over all of Poland and misgendering another user? Incredible, you keep digging deeper.
Klanadians not beating the allegations