The co-founder of failed cryptocurrency exchange FTX pleaded not guilty to a seven count indictment charging him with wire fraud, securities fraud and money laundering.
An attorney for FTX co-founder Sam Bankman-Fried said in federal court Tuesday his client has to subsist on bread, water and peanut butter because the jail he’s in isn’t accommodating his vegan diet.
Welcome to the American corrections system, abuses like this and worse happen every day and we just don’t normally hear about them because the defendants aren’t famous like this one is
Its not a corrections system, it’s a punishment system; unfortunately.
People aren’t reformed after leaving prison. Many ex-cons are forced into even worse situations and have to resort back to crimes to survive.
I don’t think a system that’s focussed on rehabilitation rather than punishment would be popular with American voters.
Countries that do focus on rehabilitation in western democracies, often hand out less long sentences and treat their prisoners relatively nicely. Their own cell, tv, etc. Still prison though, being robbed of your freedom is punishment in and of itself. On average that leads to better outcomes, lower recidivism, …
But on a case by case basis, discovering someone who committed a heinous crime was let out after 10 years? Sure, often monitored, evaluated, and with stringent conditions. Sure, only if the chance they’ll do it again is very low. But still. It doesn’t feel right. Same thing with nice prison cells. Show the average American a Norwegian prison cell, and tell them it houses a rapist, and they’ll be understandably offended. Think it isn’t fair. Which it almost certainly isn’t, but you don’t lower the chance of repeat offending by sticking someone in a cage for ten years.
Also, I do wonder if these kinds of prisons are possible in a country without a semi-decent social safety net. If jail’s better than being homeless, and homelessness is rampant, people will commit crimes just to escape. You end up rewarding criminals, because jail is comparatively nice compared to their existence outside jail.
The American political stance of “hard on crime” is why we will never see legislation reforming our prison system.
Start talking about prison reform, lowing mandatory sentences, zero tolerance, prisoner rights, and living conditions and see how hard you get attacked.
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They don’t have to be. That’s not the point of it: the point is to punish them or permanently keep them locked away. If we wanted to guarantee they’ll never hurt anyone ever again, we’d execute them and still do in some states.
YOU DON’T SAY!
It’s funny because the little shits like him who think they are smarter and above the law, are the same people who are going to power trip on him in jail. I really hope he spends the rest of his life there, see what it’s like to be shorthanded for once.
The article says that he can already get vegetarian and that they’re looking into getting vegan.
Most of the fruit, veg, rice, beans, oats, grits, bread, salad, condiments, pasta, juice etc. on the menu would be vegan any way. There might some mixed with milk or butter, but most is just going to be boiled, baked or fried in oil. Plus all the stuff from the commissary.
I think you vastly overestimate how many foods are made without animal products. I’m not even fully vegan and I often find it hard to get food that doesn’t have some kind of dead animal in it.
Well I linked the menu. It should be clear there are plenty of options
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I think it’s crazy the number is people here who think that jail/prison is supposed to primarily be about punishment. Do they not understand the concept of recitavism?
I think that’s an American thing compared to the rest of the world. Their prisons seem to be very much about punishment over rehabilitation.
Recidivism:
the tendency of a convicted criminal to reoffend.
“the prison has succeeded in reducing recidivism”
Good bot.
I… think that is a human
Goodest bot.
W’ell compromise, Good Cyborg.
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I am all for mitigating recidivism. I also think some people are just evil and won’t reform. Someone who did the things SBF did won’t reform.
See also: This asshole.
I’m surprised there are no prison rape jokes this time, people love those
What does the idea of punishing people even solve in the first place? It doesn’t help them, in fact it actually hurts them. It doesn’t teach them how to be better people, so they’re likely to do the same thing again. Oh yeah and it wastes resources on punishing these people, resources that could be going to regular people but are instead essentially being wasted to torture someone instead of trying to help them.
I bet somebody’s going to come out of the woodwork and try and argue that prison helps people somehow, by punishing them and making them scared, though I’ve found that making people scared is the wrong way of going about making them into a better person, because scared people just like animals will react, and it’s not pretty when they do.
It’s because most people saying this shit live in America where all prisons are for pure cruelty and punishment, not rehabilitation.
You see, here in America prisons are an industry that generates profits for stakeholders. True rehabilitation would cut into their profits, therefore they do everything in their power to ensure you never leave, and if you do they will leave you with enough mental trauma and behavioral issues that you will return.
Corporate media propaganda ensures americans continue to support this shit just like all the rest of the fucked up shit around here. Thanks corporate America!
If SBF was free, he would clearly not be able to reoffend. Some folk go to prison for “rehabilitation,” some to die, but his sentence is a punishment.
Grifters find a new way to grift all the time. He’d reoffend as soon as he was able.
Then he should not be released.
Nah, the vegans absolutely will demand Sam Bankman-Fried’s release on the basis that he’s not getting gourmet vegan meals anymore, simply because all they really care about is their veganism and not other people.
All the loonies care about are themselves.
He hasn’t been sentenced or convicted yet.
I keep seeing the sentiment in this thread that if you go to prison you basically deserve whatever happens to you, which is a fucked up stance in itself, but more importantly:
Why do the cows, chickens, etc. deserve to suffer because someone is in prison? Does that make sense in any moral framework? How would you feel if we bagged random people not guilty of anything and forced prisoners to watch them tortured “on their behalf” as a form of punishment? That’s pretty much the same situation ethically and everyone would agree it’s fucked up.
In these comments, People who:
- think vegetarian is close enough to vegan.
- don’t realise vegan items are no longer vegan if they’re for example, cooked in butter.
- want prisoners to rot in jail from the inside out, literally.
He is Vegan. Irrespective of how we feel about what he did, the failure to address his core ethical beliefs is completely unacceptable. This would never occur if his belief was rooted in ideas of a higher being or afterlife. Not that I’m planning on going to jail anytime soon, but the thought that I would not be able to abide by that daily practice of my life would be incredibly distressing. Unless he is doing it for environmental reasons (I don’t know) he likely seeks total animal liberation, and you’re going to force feed him stolen animal secretions? Coproducts of dead baby cows, blended up chicks, and beings bred into painful bodies? The alternative is malnutrition? I would highly consider Jainism or Sikhism on this fact alone. Fuck you if you think he should be forced to go against his ethical beliefs.
That’s a very sensationalist way to phrase your point and makes you sound fairly biased in the matter.
In the law, religious belief is a protected class, but dietary choice is not. A reasonable debate could be had about if it should be protected. The prison system nor the court room is the right forum, because it needs to be decided by the legislature.
Veganism it’s not a simple dietary choice. Depending on how long the person has been vegan, a sudden switch could make them very sick.
And let’s not pretend that prisons don’t regularly disregard inmates dietary restrictions, even the medically necessary ones. It’s easy to laugh at this one because ‘haha vegan’ but it’s still atrocious to ignore any dietary restriction, let alone such a common one.
Being celiac, or having a nut allergy is a dietary restriction. Voluntarily choosing not to eat animals or animal products is not a dietary restriction.
I agree, I would feed him pig entrails, by force even, maybe even make him slaughter the piglet or he can’t eat anything at all.
I’m sure he could ease into a merely vegetarian or occasionally vegetarian diet. He has all the time in the world.
Veganism is not strictly a dietary choice. Look into ethical veganism. In the UK, Ethical Vegans are a legally protected class. I understand they are not legally protected in America - this does not require me to change my position at all. I made it clear that it’s my opinion, and I presented how I would personally feel to be in his position and what I might consider just to have that ethical belief respected.
It’s a lifestyle choice based on moral ramifications. I understand that you’re not the legislative but it totally should be a part of the same protected class.
It is in most civilised nations.
his core ethical beliefs is completely unacceptable
his core ethical beliefs
core ethical beliefs
ethical
Nobody said the guy is entirely ethical ¯\(ツ)/¯
I don’t think being forced to consume death/murder is the answer to him not being ethical with people’s funds.
So you aren’t killing the plants and vegetables you eat as a vegan?
Or you perceive no ethical quandaries about murdering plants?
Or plants don’t count because they don’t have the same type of nervous system that allows us to communicate in an ethically direct fashion?
Are trees ethically more important than plants you can ethically eat, thus perceived as more ethically protected under such auspices?
And what’s your ethical stance on property development groups clear cutting small pine tree forested areas near existing residential/industrial/commercial zoned areas to create more affordable single family and multi-family homes for low income families?
So you aren’t killing the plants and vegetables you eat as a vegan?
Friendly tip to everyone on the internet. If you find yourself writing this, please shut the fuck up.
Yeah, can’t be out here forcing cultists to think about what they’re actually saying
Vegans are all well aware the philosophy is about reducing suffering for sentient beings. Nobody thinks “being alive” is an ethical metric. Rather, the bad faith argument about “plants feel pain” (which is absolute horse shit) is constantly spouted like it’s some kind of refutation of veganism. Not to mention this idiotic “cultist” slur that’s leveraged to make it seem like veganism isn’t the single approach that’s actually grounded in reality.
And if that means brigading and defending pieces of shit who rob other human beings of their hard-earned money and has stolen billions of dollars, giving bad faith arguments, deconstructing justice as a fundamental concept and in general being a bunch of fucking cultists, who cares. You’ll happily accuse people who want to see people like him be punished, even in a court of law, of being subhuman savages while happily acting as if the ends justify the means to enforce your evil ideological bullshit. And who cares who is harmed by your words and actions? People don’t matter, animals do.
If I’m more specific, what Vegans care about is conscious experience. They don’t care if something is alive or has some form of reactive biological intelligence. Its not a loose definition of killing that’s the problem, it’s the killing of conscious beings.
There is no scientific consensus as to the potential for consciousness in plants/trees. Almost nobody affirms that they are. You’ll find generally that when we discuss consciousness we describe beings with brains, or if we get in to gray areas, beings that at least have some form of nervous system. Since there is some level of brain plasticity, I tend to take the position that consciousness is an emergent property found in those with a nervous system at bare minimum, but absolutely and especially those with brains. That said, there are particular areas of brains that if compromised will show patterns of lost consciousness, but I just don’t affirm that those areas are entirely responsible.
So if plants and trees are not conscious, and they don’t experience reality, and there is no subject, then there is no one to grant rights to. If we were talking about some random planet that had no conscious life on it, a planet that for some reason could never support conscious life but could support plant life, I would have no ethical quandary with a space fairing civilization taking all of those resources and leaving the planet with not but rock.
The need for residential housing complicates the ethics of forest habitat removal but not by that much if we consider what a vegan world looks like. Roughly 37.5% of the world’s habitable land could be redistributed as that land currently is required for animal agriculture that otherwise wouldn’t be. Roughly the size of North America and Brazil combined. You’d have loads of land that could be reforested but also some land that could be reused for housing purposes. As for current reality, I think there’s a strong argument that group housing or apartment blocks would be far better for both people and the planet.
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I think the true argument is that dietary preference is a bit of a slippery slope. One could easily claim that they abide by a diet of only steak, truffles and lobster.
Obviously that is not feasible for a prison kitchen to fulfil. I do agree though that an effort could be made. I’m not sure if religious preference is catered to (no pork f.i.) and I could even see a point of not serving meat at all.
But the bottom line is that you can’t let the prisoner make food demands like that and be considered unethical if not fulfilled. Medically there’s not really a case here. Water and bread sounds a bit brutal, but it’s not likely that he has no choice at all, it’s also a bit of an act that his legal team will no doubt will utilise in court to claim ‘inhuman circumstances’
It’s not a slippery slope. Vegans have a saying, veganism is the moral baseline. Other prisoners who want to eat steak or chicken or hot dogs are being catered to for their preferences even though those actively cause victimization. But somebody wants to not victimize animals with their diet and all of a sudden it’s “fuck them”. None of you have thought about this at all.
Irrespective of how we feel about what he did
What he has been accused of doing. He has not been proven guilty. I’m not saying he’s not guilty but until proven so, whatever happened to “innocent until proven guilty”?
Yes earlier in the thread it was very mob like. That’s me just placating I suppose. He has not been proven guilty and they’re already starving him. Doubly wrong.
Nah, fuck him.
You can be vegan for good reasons but I feel like he’s just doing it to make a show.
I also think it’s for show. Having worked in a jail kitchen, they serve lots of cheap food like beans and rice but also have vegetables and other foods that’d be considered vegan. I suspect what’s happening is that he isn’t getting gourmet meals like he was previously accustomed to, so he’s refusing to eat anything else to gain sympathy points.
Depends on how it’s prepared. There are plenty of things one could add to veg that make them nonvegan, and a lot of us do add those things. Assuming originally vegan foods will be prepared and served in a way that keeps them vegan is a poor assumption. Idk about this guy’s actual diet, but I’ve seen a lot of vegans accidentally breaking their diet by eating something they assume is vegan, and then get sick from it since their bodies aren’t used to it anymore. Not to mention the guilt felt by those who are extremely serious about it.
I agree, only because it’s about veganism that there is a supportive reaction. If they were not respecting his Christian/Muslim beliefs for example no one here would bat an eye, especially here.
Admittedly if he held a religion that he claimed required meat consumption I would be in favor of not accommodating him. Thankfully, no major religion does this, because as it turns out in trying to seek ethical practice, they all arrive at the idea that abstaining from killing conscious beings is morally good.
I also believe your first comment is correct and the US prison system is quite messed up to say the least. However I’m being very pragmatic here and I’m not going to shed a tear if he personally only has bread and water to eat. if anything it will do him some good. the problem is that this is applied to every person in jail or most jails.
Word - My point isn’t about this particular guy so much as the precedent to be set for all incarcerated people, and the commentary people have surrounding it.
He has been Vegan since at least April 2021. He was not arrested until December 2022. It’s not a circus show. The dude’s ethical beliefs in regards to Veganism are not in question. They need to be respected.
Ironic he can respect animals more than people. He won’t find much sympathy here.
I respect animals more than people in most instances, I’ve had much worse experiences with other people than most animals in my life.
Ironic he can respect animals more than people
He doesn’t eat humans or variations of incarcerated pregnant ladies’ nonconsensually acquired breast milk. He respects them at least the same actually.
Yes instead of killing mammals he does the humane thing of subjecting them to a long life of ruin and despair.
Hey, nobody said he was a wholly good person. Dude’s going to jail for a reason.
Those animals don’t have money to steal though, so really it’s hard to make an equivalency.
The equivalency I’ve provided is equivalent. If animals were moral agents with bank accounts he may have done the same to them while still respecting their bodily autonomy. But they are just moral subjects with no bank accounts, so I’m only going to make equivalent what is certain. I don’t think you can certainly say he respects non-human animals more than humans.
I mean, I don’t think he does respect animals more than humans. I don’t really believe that’s he’s actually vegan.
No one is forcing him to do anythig. He has bread and water, or he is supposed to receive a special vegan menu?
Edit: Also imagine the girl that killed many new born babies, would you also be like: “give her a vegan diet, poor girl!?” BFR
He is not supposed to be malnourished. If the option is malnutrition, or disregard of ethical beliefs, I’d argue they actually are forcing him.
Would you think the same if a mass murderer was requesting vegan food? For example the girl that killed new born babies on purpose, would you also be like: “poor girl, give her a vegan menu!”
Yes
What problem does feeding a mass murderer dead animals solve exactly? Do you not think it’s disrespectful to animals to treat them as fodder for petty vengeance?
It solves the problem of not allowing them to use suckers like you to manipulate everyone else to doing what he wants.
If I had to rely on that much hyperbole to make the point, I’d reconsider my position, myself.
It’s obvious that’s what’s happening. Vegans are coming out in droves arguing people shouldn’t ever be put in jail simply because SBF is a vegan and they care more about their own than anyone else. They’re circling the wagons around this guy, and they never considered that he could just be lying, exaggerating or purposefully playing to them to get them to do exactly what they’re doing.
What they’re doing isn’t accomplishing any good. Neither are you when you defend them. All it’s causing is discord.
Yes. A convicted murderer sitting in prison is still a human being with human rights. Fuck this dehumanizing system that only knows punishment. It’s no wonder that the recidivism rate in the US is one of the highest in the world.
It’s not about the prisoner. Why are you victimizing animals to feed the other prisoners in the first place, but then acting like it’s unreasonable not to do it?
There are plenty of items on a typical prison menu he can eat without eating “baby cow”, or “blended up chicks” as you put it. There is no need to live off bread and water when there are vegetables, fruit, salad, juice, rice, beans etc. I’m sure this will be pointed out to him and also the limits of what a system will accommodate - dietary or religious needs. Also, his ethics are why he is in prison in the first place so boo hoo for him.
Thats all just speculation.
It’s not speculation. You can google “federal prison menu” and see the national menu that prisons supply. Here is the 2022 menu. You will note as you read that menu that there are obviously vegan food items that SBF could eat from every single meal of every single day of the week. Breakfast? Fruit, coffee, bread, branflakes… Lunch? Beans, sweet potatoes, mash, salad, rice, baked potato… Dinner? Tacos, salads, tofu, soups, tater tots, cornbread, corn on the cob, hummus… In most cases he even has a viable main option, and even if he can’t he could always trade his main to someone else for a side of theirs. Not to mention stuff he can buy in the commissary - ramen noodles, candy, crackers, cookies etc.
So in summary, SBF is lying and trying to drum up sympathy for his own self-inflicted situation. I’m sure prison food sucks compared to what mommy makes or what his ill gotten fortunes could buy, but he is not reduced to bread and water.
And yet the federal prison menu has no relevance to “ Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn”
The MDC is administered by the federal bureau of prisons and plainly states in its own literature that it offers the nationalised standard menu. So me pointing you at the link to the nationalised standard menu couldn’t be more relevant. It’s literally what they have to eat in this place and other federal facilities.
SBF is in prison and has been relieved of his freedom.
The penal system must offer him a diet that satisfies his daily nutritional requirements because he is not free to do so on his own.
The state is not required to support his “ethical beliefs.”
Just give the guy vegan food ffs. Fucking Americans are so obsessed with making life as shitty as possible for anyone any chance they get.
For anyone? Ever heard of this guy?
Yes, I have, he’s a horrible person, but treating him poorly will not undoe what he’s done. And this goes far beyond this one person. The entire us “”“justice”“” system is based around this.
Well then, by that logic, nothing bad should ever happen to anyone regardless of what they do, meaning they’re now free to harm others as they wish.
What the fuck are you even talking about? Are you a troll or are you just thick as pig shit?
He should be forced to eat the organs and flesh of animals, nothing green whatsoever, only flesh until the end of his days. He’s a monster so he should eat what they eat and not pretend he’s a fucking saint.
Lmao, okay edgelord.
I’d personally consider it pretty cruel and inhumans to force someone to violate their own ethics on a daily basis.
Then write your elected official if you have one. I don’t really care if he gets to live his best life.
If it were up to me I would force him to watch slaughterhouse of animals being slaughtered then force him to eat meat from the same kinds of animals killed in the video, if it were up to me, he would never touch greens again as long as he’s alive.
They are required in most civilised nations. You’re just too used to America’s punishment focused prison system, look at the prisons in Scandinavian nations and how they treat their prisoners.
I don’t think SBF needs rehabilitation or whatever the europeans call it. He needs a prison cell, 3 peanut butter sandwiches, and an hour of rec time… everyday… for twenty years.
Only flesh and milk for him. Don’t feed his made up vegan ethics nonsense, he needs to be miserable and eating meat that he despises is the perfect punishment for a little bitch like him.
He didn’t murder it rape anyone did he?
He robbed people of their savings. Imagine losing your retirement?
rehabilitation or whatever the europeans call it
My god dude you’re like a walking parody. Please stop giving the US a bad name.
I have no shame in the believing prison can be used as a punishment. Shouldn’t be the only thing it’s used for, but it’s what this fella needs.
Oh for sure, punishment is historically a super effective solution after all.
Huh? Recidivism? What’s that?
If SBF would reoffend I’d gladly pay the taxes to give him another twenty years of sandwiches. I don’t care about healing this man.
Can the state require you to eat the body or bodily fluids of someone you affirm has rights to bodily autonomy, someone we know to be wholly innocent because they lack agency?
No.
They’re required to make the offer. I believe the prison where he’s incarcerated has even offered him the option of vegetarian meals to complement his PB sandwiches.
I think that’s a very generous offer that’s he’s used his agency to reject because he’s a fool.
has even offered him the option of vegetarian meals
That doesn’t necessarily work at all. Vegans don’t eat food that contain or are prepared with any dairy or egg product. It’s very likely all of their vegetarian meals are not Vegan accessible.
Sounds like he will continue to enjoy peanut butter then :)
In case it wasn’t clear, you’re not corresponding with someone who cares if SBF is allowed to eat a vegan diet in prison.
It’s the precedent set for prisoners in general that you should have a problem with. He just so happens to be the one in the public eye that is affected right now. Forcing him to either go against his beliefs or be nutritionally deficient is not okay. Your feelings about SBF are not at issue. We can end this chain on that note.
Currently only religious beliefs are supported by the prison industry. If he couldn’t eat kosher, for example, I would agree that that’s a problem.
What if he was pescaterian? Or on a Keto diet? It’s this zone that I don’t think the state needs to entertain. SBF happens to be vegan and vegan is in the region in my mind.
I guess my question is: Is there a limit to the extent which the state should go to satisfy your dietary preferences?
I don’t think so, but it should, he totally deserves it.
stolen animal secretions ethical beliefs
Theft from animals is unethical, while theft from humans is ethical (based on his actions and your logic). From this we can extrapolate that humans aren’t animals at all.
Thanks SBF! That clear up a lot.
I explained this elsewhere but stealing from someone’s body is completely incongruous from using other’s funds.
using
You mean “stealing”, which is incongruent with autonomy in every sense. I won’t make excuses for meat eaters if you don’t make excuses for scam artists.
Okay. Lets try again. Stealing people’s finances is not the same as stealing from their anatomy. I dont know know why you think I care about SBF specifically.
I’m all for comparing and contrasting the details. But I am speaking vaguely here; all theft is bad.
Let’s let the courts argue the specifics. I’m just here to say that all theft is bad theft.
I have a feeling the only reason this guy is facing consequences is because he defrauded other rich people.
I don’t believe his choices are THAT limited. Most prisons will have a self-service line with a choice of boiled veg, rice, beans, potatoes, pasta, fruit, grits, oats. Also, and just generally, boo hoo for him. Funny how his ethics extend to what he eats, but not who he steals from.
Hate the guy, pretty much, but tbh if it’s true this isn’t okay.
No what’s not okay is that they aren’t forcing him it eat meat against his will. This is prison, not a vacation, he needs to be punished not catered to.
We never get news articles on how the common prisoner views the food. Fuck this billionaire thief and fuck NBC news.
Jail should accommodate a vegan diet, but it also seems like they are to some extent. PB sandwiches are food. As long as he can cobble together a nutritionally complete diet, it isn’t cruel to have boring meals. Obviously JUST peanut butter sandwiches won’t do it but I have to think they have potatoes, beans, rice on the menu too, stuff like that.
Just because they’re on the menu doesn’t mean they’re vegan. They’re often made with meat or meat stocks.
Jail should accommodate a vegan diet
I think that should go without saying, and the real question is why isn’t it the default? Why are we bothering to give prisoners (inherently relatively expensive/less sustainable) meat or dairy to begin with?
Because meat isn’t taxes properly so that having a decent meat based diet is cheaper than having a decent plant based one
Sure there are a lot of cheap vegan meals, too, but some of them are harder and/or take longer to prepare than cheap meat-based food
I’d guess the dairy/meat lobby would complain a lot of they didn’t have people forced to eat their stuff in prison
Id guess it’s a very nice baseline of product-sales
The only reason this is being talked about is because he was a billionaire. Boo hoo poor guy stole 7billion Dollars, and now can’t have the lifestyle he was used to
what is it with fraudsters and weird hair
Crimes aside, punishment should not include limiting a person’s diet or basic food options. No one’s asking for gourmet in prisons, but basic fruits and vegetables should be the baseline.
Read the article. The jail can provide vegetarian, but not vegan.
Jail isn’t fun.
Jail isn’t fun, no, but its also supposed to be about reformation, not straight punishment.
If all we do is punish them, they have no real incentive to change. Just do a better job of not getting caught next time.
Or, in Sammy’s case, choose less influential people to bilk.
This isn’t punishment yet. Not for his financial crimes anyway. He’s being held because he allegedly violated his bond through witness tampering and because he can’t stop flapping his mouth to the media. The judge has an obligation to preserve the court’s integrity throughout the case, for both the plaintiff and the defendant, and that means limiting the defendant’s freedom.
Limit the freedom with regards to how well they’re fed? That seems pretty… draconian. “You’re not guilty… yet, but we’re going to curtail your basic freedoms on principle, cause fuck it right?”
Seems reasonable imo
Yeast is alive he should go with just water. Also fuck him and everyone like him.
They should get him those vegan meals the airlines have in economy class. That would work, no? Vegan enough for him to eat, but not enjoy.
